To cut or not to cut?

[Jamminitin]

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I do not remember anything before playing with the springs on the crib. I was 2 yrs old then and my Mother said it drove her nuts. But I remember doing it. The point is that it has not changed the way I grew up. At least not in any way if it had not been done. I am kinda glad that today there is no "cheese" down there and if I go without a shower for a few days on a hunting trip or something my willy does not smell like a 3 day old dead sardine. But I guess I will never know either way.

I vote we cut out armpits and amputate feet on infants too because some day they might go camping and get stinky. :p

[Havoc]

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[
There is nothing wrong with posting what you believe,everyone should, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone. However I think everyone's opinion right,wrong or what not ,on any topic should be respected.
I felt you quoting the end of my post and saying thank god I was finished.
It came across as though you had no regard for my opinion and what I had to say, and that is why I stated you seem to not be very personable.

Do you see this line from your post?

So havoc what do you think its ok to let your child go through agony because the doctor says its ok.

If you want civil discourse don't make up shit.

you watched a video, posted an expericance you had where no anestetic was used and then made the leap to me and my intentions.

you have no idea how my boys were circumsized, you have no idea how I came to my decisions, you have no idea how the subject was approched by the doctor who delivered my kids, you posted speculation as fact directed straight to me, ( just in case you didn't know it) that made it personal not an opinion on the subject.

That was the reason for my posting of "thank God" to your post.

and now you turn and want to put the lack of civility on me?

guess what? you're the one who responded like an ass. not me.

[Biker Dude]

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I like this Havoc guy. Reminds me of someone, I just can't quite remember the name...

[Rhubarb]

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Come and live in England, the subject would not been thought of here.

Maybe that's why American girls move here

[Gunnen4u]

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I like this Havoc guy. Reminds me of someone, I just can't quite remember the name...

I find myself rooting for him in this subject of which I previously didn't give a damn about. I had a hard time stretching Anthony's agony in childhood to Havoc's decision. Tony committed one of the worst logical fallacies if Madsen Pirie taught me anything about logic.

Making the jump from cutting infant feet off to cutting foreskin off is another joke if there was one to be made about the logical thought processes of the average person.

[Gunnen4u]

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I have 6 kids TK, 4 of them boys all circumsized, I don't need to watch the video I watched it 4 times in person, and that really is my point.

I made those decisions, and I and those boys mother are the only ones who have any right to make them.

I fucking hate intrusion into my personal life by busy bodies who think they should have some kind of power within my decisions and my house based on some overly self important sense of entitlement.

This thread is owned. I am laughing pretty hard now at what Havoc is pointing out.

Especially when it seems to be coming from majority people with no penises.



It's good to know people are willing to make parental decisions for you. Just like the fat, ugly spinster social workers I see roaming around everywhere.

6 kids? Nice work man.

[Twitchin Kitten]

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No one made any parental decisions for anyone, Gunnen. I know I never did. Nice try though.
It's a conversation on whether one thinks its a cruel procedure or not. Not a lecture to anyone who's done that to their kids.

I guess in your opinion that women, who also are parents of these children have or had no say in this? It's always the father's decision? Mother of the child has no penis so by your definition she has no right. Ok then.

One day you're going to come out of your angry, jaded little world and lighten up a bit. Everyone is not as horrible as you envision them.

[Aurora Moon]

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There is also nothing that requires it's presence, the comparison is that when an infant or child needs medical treatment the parents make that decision, based on whatever they want to base it on, religion,or cartoons, it doesn't matter, if it's not in your living room it's none of your business.

In this thread I have read that the decision should be left up to the infant to decide, how fucking ill informed is that?

Of course abortion isn't the same thing, it can't be right? that would mean that someone else would be making the decision for the incubator.

I love the mutilation analogy though it was a nice touch, should we talk about lipo? or breast implants, or ass lifts and face lifts in the same way?

The simple fact is it's none of your business, no education is required to have kids, so obviously none is required to make decisions about circumcision.

Funny you should say that. did you know that there are actual parents out there who's gotten lipo, breast implants, and other things for their young kids before they're fully developed in both body and mind?
I guess you're going to say that was the parent's choice and that it was right to do that to their offspring.
(see, I can twist your words around too!)

a circumcision is purely for cosmetic purposes nowadays. we now live in an age where we have all the equipment to keep penises clean in the average household, regardless of whenever it is circumcised or not. So even though it was helpful in keeping dicks clean in the past, it is no longer relevant the way it was 100-200 years ago.

And the others here are right... half the parents out there who got it did it mainly only for those reasons:
1) every other kid had them, so we don't want little johnny here to stand out too much and get bullied.

2) Some doctor who they didn't really know all that well waltzes in and starts pressuring them to do it, saying things like "little johnny here won't catch aids if he's circumcised! you care about his health, right??" When in reality the shape of your penis or the lack of foreskin doesn't do jack when it comes to preventing aids. the truth is that if a guy constantly engages in unsafe sex, then he's going to catch aids regardless even if he was cut.
also, he would still need to spend time washing down there neither way, otherwise he's going to catch all kinds of diseases if he doesn't keep his dick clean. So that bullshit excuse is also out.

it's like removing your tonsils. sure, tonsils aren't "necessary" like the foreskin but for the most part they're part of our body system and obviously served a function for us in the past. They're part of us, and there's no good reason to get rid of them "just because". They should be only be removed if it's necessary to do so, like in the case of a infection.

So I say wait until that baby's an ADULT, and let him decide then!

edit: oh, and please don't take it as an personal attack on you. you obviously had your own reasons for doing that with your own kids. We're just simply stating our own opinions here on this subject. you can feel free to disregard my opinion on this matter... I won't be offended.

[AnthonyG]

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[
There is nothing wrong with posting what you believe,everyone should, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone. However I think everyone's opinion right,wrong or what not ,on any topic should be respected.
I felt you quoting the end of my post and saying thank god I was finished.
It came across as though you had no regard for my opinion and what I had to say, and that is why I stated you seem to not be very personable.

Do you see this line from your post?

So havoc what do you think its ok to let your child go through agony because the doctor says its ok.

If you want civil discourse don't make up shit.

you watched a video, posted an expericance you had where no anestetic was used and then made the leap to me and my intentions.

you have no idea how my boys were circumsized, you have no idea how I came to my decisions, you have no idea how the subject was approched by the doctor who delivered my kids, you posted speculation as fact directed straight to me, ( just in case you didn't know it) that made it personal not an opinion on the subject.

That was the reason for my posting of "thank God" to your post.

and now you turn and want to put the lack of civility on me?

guess what? you're the one who responded like an ass. not me.

This discussion has become pretty crazy, and for some it seems to have become too personal so I will try to digress from this subject after this post.

You brought your children into the subject and made it personal for yourself ,I just responded.
Of course I do not know how you had their procedures done, however if there was no anesthetic used or someone didn't witness it being used. My agony statement holds ground and is not me just being a "ass". That was the reason for my statement and why I made it.

[Gunnen4u]

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OK AM, without spending 2hrs of my life dealing with that entire post...half of it is unsupported conjecture used as *evidence* and the other parts make me wonder.

So far, the argument boils down to parental rights. Regardless of logical ability of the child to make decisions dependent on age, how people "feel" or basing arguments on false analogies (Madsen Pirie wept), there is question I would like to have answered, and of which the answers would be very telling in ways we may go into later. The question is:

Until the child is an adult, should the parent be the one to make medical decisions based on what the parent thinks is best for the child?

I am firmly in the 'yes' camp. Anything else invites other people (through the state and subsequent laws) to make decisions regarding what are my dependents and my progeny. Medical cases can be dealt with more liberally on a case by case basis within this framework. I am more worried about whether or not busybodies in the public telling me what I can or cannot do within my household.

This applies to circumcision and whether or not a parent decides to have it performed on their male children.

To answer no, is to invite other people to control your household and lives of your children through force. It's bad enough some areas bad homeschooling, forcing you to make your child go to a public school, representing a new change of authority in that the state becomes the parent in legal matters (unless this has changed in the last year that I read about). I do not want them to make medical decisions for me or my children either.

Here is some food for thought: many religions and their adherents practice circumcision as a rite and in line with the particular religion's tenets. To make any law regarding it, is to make a law with respect to religion (which could be anything depending on the person)? That could have major legal implications.