To cut or not to cut?

[Havoc]

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It's still no ones business but the parents.

Maybe we should let the babies make all of their own medical decisions? you know like being aborted in the third trimester?

or having cancer treatments, and heart replacements, you know just some of the minor stuff.

[Twitchin Kitten]

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It is the parent's decision. No one has questioned that. The problem is that too many parents are ill informed and make decisions based on old wives tales, ignorant religious beliefs and pressure from a physician. Seeing them do that to that baby in the video is enough to tell me it's the wrong thing to do. Every parent should be given as much information on the [truthful] pros and cons of the procedure before making this decision to mutilate their child.

Abortion has nothing to do with this.
You cannot possibly compare saving a child who has cancer to a circumcision. There has never been a need to save a life by circumcision, unless the kid had such a gangrenous penile infection of the foreskin it had to be removed.

No one has suggested a baby make his own decision. That was fun how you twisted that around to suit your argument though. Anyone reading this knows that the comment meant that one should leave well enough alone and when the boy is old enough to make his own decision, he should do so.

[Jamminitin]

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Ridiculous Havoc that you would compare a neccesary medical treatment (chemo) to a cosmetic surgery. There is nothing about the foreskin that requires removal. Nothing.

[Havoc]

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Ridiculous Havoc that you would compare a neccesary medical treatment (chemo) to a cosmetic surgery. There is nothing about the foreskin that requires removal. Nothing.

There is also nothing that requires it's presence, the comparison is that when an infant or child needs medical treatment the parents make that decision, based on whatever they want to base it on, religion,or cartoons, it doesn't matter, if it's not in your living room it's none of your business.

In this thread I have read that the decision should be left up to the infant to decide, how fucking ill informed is that?

Of course abortion isn't the same thing, it can't be right? that would mean that someone else would be making the decision for the incubator.

I love the mutilation analogy though it was a nice touch, should we talk about lipo? or breast implants, or ass lifts and face lifts in the same way?

The simple fact is it's none of your business, no education is required to have kids, so obviously none is required to make decisions about circumcision.

[Twitchin Kitten]

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You obviously have not looked at the video I linked, nor the images or you would have a different opinion of this surgery. If you did look and still think it isn't cruel, I have nothing to say on that. I couldn't watch without tears in my eyes for that baby.

You keep arguing the fact that it's up to the parents and we have no right to think this cruel surgery is just what it is, cruel. NO ONE has said there should be no right to make this decision. NO ONE has advocated it be made illegal.

You keep insisting we leave it up to the infant to decide. Please quote the person who said that. NO ONE said the INFANT - the say the boy who is left whole- AS GOD MADE HIM - should decide when he gets old enough to make these kinds of decisions. That would be an adult, no? This is the second time it's been clarified for you.

As for plastic surgery being mutilation - oh hell yes. Michael Jackson is a fine example of self mutilation. Twilla has posted many photos of before and after celebs where they look like monsters now. Yeah, it's mutilation. NORMAL people accept the changes their bodies go through over the years and carry on happy and looking "normal". Only the very vain will convince themselves they look good. Hell look at Mickey Rourke.. He used to be very good looking. Not anymore, he looks like an absolute monster now

[Havoc]

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You obviously have not looked at the video I linked, nor the images or you would have a different opinion of this surgery. If you did look and still think it isn't cruel, I have nothing to say on that. I couldn't watch without tears in my eyes for that baby.

You keep arguing the fact that it's up to the parents and we have no right to think this cruel surgery is just what it is, cruel. NO ONE has said there should be no right to make this decision. NO ONE has advocated it be made illegal.

You keep insisting we leave it up to the infant to decide. Please quote the person who said that. NO ONE said the INFANT - the say the boy who is left whole- AS GOD MADE HIM - should decide when he gets old enough to make these kinds of decisions. That would be an adult, no? This is the second time it's been clarified for you.

As for plastic surgery being mutilation - oh hell yes. Michael Jackson is a fine example of self mutilation. Twilla has posted many photos of before and after celebs where they look like monsters now. Yeah, it's mutilation. NORMAL people accept the changes their bodies go through over the years and carry on happy and looking "normal". Only the very vain will convince themselves they look good. Hell look at Mickey Rourke.. He used to be very good looking. Not anymore, he looks like an absolute monster now

I have 6 kids TK, 4 of them boys all circumsized, I don't need to watch the video I watched it 4 times in person, and that really is my point.

I made those decisions, and I and those boys mother are the only ones who have any right to make them.

I fucking hate intrusion into my personal life by busy bodies who think they should have some kind of power within my decisions and my house based on some overly self important sense of entitlement.

[Havoc]

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while were on the subject of abuse by parents, stop immunizing your kids, it's dangerous and borders on abuse.

educate yourself about something that is actually damaging to your kids.

http://educate-yourself.org/vcd/

[Twitchin Kitten]

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You obviously have not looked at the video I linked, nor the images or you would have a different opinion of this surgery. If you did look and still think it isn't cruel, I have nothing to say on that. I couldn't watch without tears in my eyes for that baby.

You keep arguing the fact that it's up to the parents and we have no right to think this cruel surgery is just what it is, cruel. NO ONE has said there should be no right to make this decision. NO ONE has advocated it be made illegal.

You keep insisting we leave it up to the infant to decide. Please quote the person who said that. NO ONE said the INFANT - the say the boy who is left whole- AS GOD MADE HIM - should decide when he gets old enough to make these kinds of decisions. That would be an adult, no? This is the second time it's been clarified for you.

As for plastic surgery being mutilation - oh hell yes. Michael Jackson is a fine example of self mutilation. Twilla has posted many photos of before and after celebs where they look like monsters now. Yeah, it's mutilation. NORMAL people accept the changes their bodies go through over the years and carry on happy and looking "normal". Only the very vain will convince themselves they look good. Hell look at Mickey Rourke.. He used to be very good looking. Not anymore, he looks like an absolute monster now

I have 6 kids TK, 4 of them boys all circumsized, I don't need to watch the video I watched it 4 times in person, and that really is my point.

I made those decisions, and I and those boys mother are the only ones who have any right to make them.

I fucking hate intrusion into my personal life by busy bodies who think they should have some kind of power within my decisions and my house based on some overly self important sense of entitlement.

No one is trying to intrude on your personal life. You're taking this discussion too personal.

We're having a discussion on if we think such surgeries are mutilation or not. You obviously don't think it's cruel and you have your reasons for cutting your kids. I know people who decided after the first boy not to ever put the other boys they've had since through that.

Yeah, we all know the pros and cons - mostly "cons" IMO of not vaccinating your kids. Feel free to start a thread about that though. It'll make for good discussion

[Havoc]

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I'm against mutilating a baby's penis against his will. like others say here, it's supposed to be their choice and not the parents' choice. and you have to watch out for those doctors and nurses at the hospitals around here who believe that it's mandatory to get an circumcision for health reasons. they'll pretty much try to pressure parents into doing it instead of letting the parents make a informed choice.

*shakes head*

[Twitchin Kitten]

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Sigh - and you took that literally?

You wouldn't even consider that she meant leave it alone until he's an adult?

FYI - if you watch that video, you can even make the case for against his will since he's strapped down like an animal. Hell, when I had my cats neutered they were less cruel about it. If the kid wasn't strapped down, I'm betting the first pinch of the forceps would make him squirm his hardest to get away.