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+---- Thread: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed (/thread-2697.html)
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Twitchin Kitten - 11-24-2011
Havoc, what you and everyone who agrees with you seem to miss in regard to my comments and (god forbid) feelings is the fact I never said they should not have been broken up. I never said the kids were right or wrong. All I said was that I think the use of pepper spray in this instance looked to me to be heavy handed.
If you or anyone can find images that show these kids are blocking the pathway and any other path for that matter, thus keeping people from going around them or entering the building, impeding progress, hurting anyone, stopping people from getting to work or class, it MIGHT change my mind. Everything I found does not show any different view or perspective.
But hey, go on and twist my words and meaning all you want. I'm tired of repeating myself.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Havoc - 11-24-2011
I purposely didn't quote anyone TK.
That was supposed to make my comments non directional and not single anyone out.
They are sitting on pavement,Black top.
generally that would indicate that they are on a pathway/road/public walkway etc.
any force is always going to look high handed, it's supposed to,that is the purpose of force, the police had 2 choices either let them sit there and do what they were doing or break them up.
If they were impeding a public right of way, then the police had one choice and that was to break them up, if they wouldn't move by verbal command then the police also only had one choice and that would be to escalate the use of force.
People seldom understand what the police do is almost always a direct result of an action or in this case an inaction of someone else, choices are seldom easy and in most cases are judged as incorrect by those who are watching.
People tend to forget past experiances, the police don't have that luxury, they have to live with the past especially in circumstances of civil protest, when you think back on past protests and think about the escalation of them from start to finish what do you see?
What the police see is a gathering crowd, a swell of people, a growing tension, and when viewed in the rear view mirror they see that crowd that swell of people becoming more agitated rather than more calm, the more agitation the more discord,the more emotional, the more confrontational the greater the response from police the greater the response from the police the more the agitation grows until all hell breaks loose, that has been the history of campus protest especially in california, what I saw was a quick end to what could have and given the temperature of the nation almost certianly would have been a real clash with much more violent and pissed off people, and I won't even get into the cost financially of a much bigger protest.
all things considered, I really believe that police acted responsibly and rationally in their approach in this instance.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - JohnWho - 11-24-2011
(11-24-2011, 11:39 AM)Biker Dude Wrote: It would take a hell of a stretch to get that concept from this thread. Some intellectual dishonesty as well. The concept that no matter what they do, the police are in the right is reprehensible and goes directly against my Classical Liberal roots. It also goes against my direct observation as well.
Geez - it would take a hell of a stretch to get that concept from this thread too along with intellectual dishonesty.
I do not subscribe to "no matter what they do, the police are in the right" any more than I subscribe to the idea that all "peaceful demonstrations" are.
In the case of the OP, one's opinion of the acts of the demonstrators directly affects one's opinion of whether the police acted within reason.
What we need to know is exactly what the circumstances of the situation were.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Biker Dude - 11-24-2011
I can say that you are definitely set in your views. But then I never thought I would sway you any more than you were going to sway me.
With my experience of police actions and responses, I am not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt every time. Far to often they have been shown to be actions of power, force and control, not diffusing situations, not actual 'peace officer' work. Police work just tends to draw a certain kind of individual, and a large percentage of the time, it is exactly the kind of individual that should never be given that kind of power. And I have seen the wrong side of it to many times.
Obviously you do tend to grant the police every benefit of the doubt you can.
I doubt we will ever agree.
Have a good thanksgiving.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Havoc - 11-24-2011
(11-24-2011, 01:55 PM)Biker Dude Wrote: Obviously you do tend to grant the police every benefit of the doubt you can.
I doubt we will ever agree.
Have a good thanksgiving.
These two sentences make up the only real truth that your post held, so I cut it down to this so you will be able to understand something.
The police were reactionary, not proactionary.
This is why we will never agree, you tend to see the police as proactive, I see them as reactive.
If these young head fulls of mush hadn't decided to be where they were doing what they were doing, they would not have encountered the police and the police would not have been faced with several decisions which they did not ask for.
In the end, no one will ever convince me that police enjoyed doing what they did, they were not willing participants in this bullshit they were drug in by someone elses actions just like they always are.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Biker Dude - 11-25-2011
(11-24-2011, 03:31 PM)Havoc Wrote: These two sentences make up the only real truth that your post held, so I cut it down to this so you will be able to understand something.Boy you really are bull headed.
The police were reactionary, not proactionary.
This is why we will never agree, you tend to see the police as proactive, I see them as reactive.
If these young head fulls of mush hadn't decided to be where they were doing what they were doing, they would not have encountered the police and the police would not have been faced with several decisions which they did not ask for.
In the end, no one will ever convince me that police enjoyed doing what they did, they were not willing participants in this bullshit they were drug in by someone elses actions just like they always are.
No, I don't see the police as proactive, not at all. Never said that either. Don't quite know why you made up THAT particular straw man. Police action by it's very nature is reaction.
We'll never agree because you keep making up positions for me and arguing against them. Of course when you make up STUPID positions, you can have the appearance of winning a point.
Get this: These kids knew they were gonna be arrested. That was what they wanted. To make a point, get publicity, get their pictures in the paper. Understand? Cops played into their hands. IT WAS WHAT THEY WANTED. Ok? Now when the pepper spray came out, they weren't counting on that. But they most likely felt that in backing down at that point they would look even more foolish. Either that or they knew what video of them getting pepper sprayed while they did nothing would look like. And again the cops played right into it.
Of course the cops enjoyed it. The chance to pepper spray some dirty hippies? To haul away some dumb kids? What's not to like? Only thing missing was some good old fashioned skull cracking. Damn right they enjoyed it. And if you deny it, you are dishonest.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Havoc - 11-25-2011
You win, fuck those cops and every other cop in this country, they are all a bunch of anti social rights busting fuck ups.
We need to start a petition banning the use of pepper spray.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Biker Dude - 11-25-2011
Man, I love how you can't quite see what people are saying, you just argue because we gored your sacred cow.
Looked back over the thread, didn't see anybody saying pepper spray should never be used. Over-react much?
Looked back over the thread, didn't see anybody saying fuck the cops. Again...
You argued a bunch of points, some of which you had no backing on. Some of what you argued against you made up just to argue against. Sorry if it upset you to be called on this. Oh well.
You trust the cops implicitly to always to the right thing in the right way. I don't. I have enough experience with them to not.
Either way, this thread went on a lot longer than I thought it would.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Havoc - 11-25-2011
(11-25-2011, 04:05 PM)Biker Dude Wrote: Man, I love how you can't quite see what people are saying, you just argue because we gored your sacred cow.
Looked back over the thread, didn't see anybody saying pepper spray should never be used. Over-react much?
Looked back over the thread, didn't see anybody saying fuck the cops. Again...
You argued a bunch of points, some of which you had no backing on. Some of what you argued against you made up just to argue against. Sorry if it upset you to be called on this. Oh well.
You trust the cops implicitly to always to the right thing in the right way. I don't. I have enough experience with them to not.
Either way, this thread went on a lot longer than I thought it would.
I'm an ex cop, what the fuck did you expect.
You on the other hand are still an emotional wreck.
RE: UC Davis Students Pepper Sprayed - Biker Dude - 11-25-2011
I had pretty much figured that. And no, emotionally I'm fine. Just more honest is all. Practice projection much? Typical response that because I had the nerve to disagree with you means something is wrong with me is, well, typical.