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+---- Thread: 2012 Triple Crown (/thread-3001.html)
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - John L - 05-22-2012
I remember this had made the news shortly after Secretariat's death, but had quickly forgotten about it until just now. When I went and read about Secretariat, I was reminded of the news report I had forgotten. It was about the size of his heart, and the genetic reason for all this. You can read about it here: Large heart and the X Factor. Just scroll down to that heading, and read about his unusually large heart, and how other champions also had this trait. Its an 'X' chromosome link(from the female) that gives these horses a 'select advantage' for winning races. A large heart, which is a huge muscle, is far better at providing oxygen to the muscles because it has so much pumping power. And though Secretariat's heart was never officially weighed, it was still the largest ever recorded, and estimated to be at least 22 pounds.
In the Sports Illustrated article "Pure Heart", is this explanation:
Quote:........Dr. Thomas Swerczek, a professor of veterinary science at the University of Kentucky, performed the necropsy. All of the horse's vital organs were normal in size except for the heart.
"We were all shocked," Swerczek said. "I've seen and done thousands of autopsies on horses, and nothing I'd ever seen compared to it. The heart of the average horse weighs about nine pounds. This was almost twice the average size, and a third larger than any equine heart I'd ever seen. And it wasn't pathologically enlarged. All the chambers and the valves were normal. It was just larger. I think it told us why he was able to do what he did."
I think its safe to say that if "I'll Have Another" does with the Triple Crown, experts will be very much interested in weighing his heart.
And interesting bit of genetic information worth storing away.
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - Twitchin Kitten - 05-22-2012
They probably have equipment now that can get a good look at how big his heart is without waiting for his demise.
Everyone thinks it's the Stallion that makes the champ, but those who have any knowledge of horses know it's the mare. 80% of the foal is the mare. The stallion is only a sperm donor.
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - LKTraz - 05-22-2012
I'd say IHA likely has a large heart but Secretariat was a freak of nature. The odds of another like him are astronomical......genetically speaking.
The simply need to do a CAT or MRI on him to get a measurement (minus the weight) and see how he compares.
IHA does have what it takes. Now we just have to wait and see if he delivers.
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - John L - 05-23-2012
(05-22-2012, 03:34 PM)Twitchin Kitten Wrote: They probably have equipment now that can get a good look at how big his heart is without waiting for his demise.
Everyone thinks it's the Stallion that makes the champ, but those who have any knowledge of horses know it's the mare. 80% of the foal is the mare. The stallion is only a sperm donor.
That's not true Dear. It is a combination of Both acting together. What you are seeing here is just one indicator, of which there are countless.
For example this X Chromosome result would still be the output of both male and female genes. I'm not sure if this is a final form of hetrozygosity, or homozygosity, but I suspect the former. Hetrozygosity would be an 'xy' trait from both parents, and homozygosity would be one 'xx' and one 'yy' trait. The best example of this can be seen in Balanced Polymorphisms. And while the best known one is the Sickling trait, there are many other examples that are not so deadly.
And if it were to be an 'xx' trait, just what trait would give the recipient a 'select advantage' over the rest of the breeding population? And note that these horses with over large hearts do not die from the result, but rather have a select advantage for passing on these genes to other generations. In other words, it is a distinct plus for the success of the species. And I have not found any example of cases where other offspring develop other manifestations that lead to their demise, or weeding out, as you will see with Sickle Cell Anemia, Cystic Fibrosis, or other examples.
I know I am perhaps not being so clear here, but as the saying goes about 'taking two to tango', this case would also apply to it.
If a much larger heart wins races, and it is selectively bred for that purpose, it will be something breeders will shoot for. And if it doesn't present a significant danger for a large percentage of offspring, it will become part of the breeding population's success in the future. But it will require both partners.
(05-22-2012, 07:16 PM)LKTraz Wrote: I'd say IHA likely has a large heart but Secretariat was a freak of nature. The odds of another like him are astronomical......genetically speaking.
The(y) simply need to do a CAT or MRI on him to get a measurement (minus the weight) and see how he compares.
IHA does have what it takes. Now we just have to wait and see if he delivers.
One thing is certain: if it is successful, and large hearted horses consistently win, you can bet it will no longer be a 'freak' of nature. It will be the 'norm' in the business. In other words, humans will be tinkering with genes, just as they have been doing for thousands of years now. How do you think the 'Domestication of Plants and Animals' came about so successfully. I did a good deal of graduate work in this before switching from anthropological anthropology to physical anthropology. The evidence of New World plant manipulation is well documented, and while plants were the main thing in South/Central America, the Middle East has all sorts of examples where animals were genetically manipulated over the last 10-12 thousand years.
That is what is going to be going on here in the future. Soon almost every thoroughbred will have a super large heart, and they will be breaking records that were not thought of before. You just wait and see here.
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - Twitchin Kitten - 05-23-2012
I doubt it. There are extraordinarily strict rules for breeding Thoroughbreds in this country right down to where they can breed and how often.
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - John L - 05-23-2012
Ok, perhaps you can show where this would be violating any rules? I'm talking about "genotypic", not "phenotypic" breeding here. And even if there were rules specifically about such breeding, how would they even know? After all, genetic manipulation is the norm throughout the world, even done unintentionally. Any person, or group, who pick the best of each crop/stock is using genetic manipulation.
Here is a good explanation of both words: PHENOTYPE AND GENOTYPE
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - Twitchin Kitten - 05-23-2012
A) I don't care enough to argue. I want to die believing he was unique, will remain unique and I got to witness greatness and perfection.
B) if it were going to be the "norm" in breeding champions, why aren't we seeing anything come of this through all the foals out of Secretariat by now?
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - John L - 05-24-2012
(05-23-2012, 03:47 PM)Twitchin Kitten Wrote: A) I don't care enough to argue. I want to die believing he was unique, will remain unique and I got to witness greatness and perfection.
B) if it were going to be the "norm" in breeding champions, why aren't we seeing anything come of this through all the foals out of Secretariat by now?
MY guess is that it really is happening, but no one has been reporting on it. Any breeder who can get a 'leg up' on the competition is naturally going to use it unless it is blatantly illegal or immoral. And selectively growing a large heart, just like growing longer/bigger legs is not illegal.
And since a larger, stronger, and more healthy heart is the best way to increase stamina, this is the obvious route being taken. Plus, it will 'selectively' increase the strength(think success) of the species involved. Its a plus/plus for everyone: these horses become the norm, they win races and break records, and this line of thoroughbred increases the success of the breed. Why shouldn't it be pursued?
And lets look at this from the POV of the sport. If the bred is being 'selectively' improved, and records are being broken, this will naturally increase interest in the sport. This will mean more revenue. Now, do you see the direction I am headed with all this?
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - Twitchin Kitten - 05-24-2012
Yeah but in 35 years, it's not happening. I don't see all these records being broken.
RE: 2012 Triple Crown - John L - 05-24-2012
(05-24-2012, 12:56 PM)Twitchin Kitten Wrote: Yeah but in 35 years, it's not happening. I don't see all these records being broken.
Secretariat did not pass away until October 1989, which was a little over twenty years ago. And the science of genetic engineering is still in its infant stage. The fact that the gestation period for horses is almost one year, well over 2.5 months longer than humans. This is significant in that using generational change is very slow. We are not talking about rats or even dogs.
All this takes time. And producing a line of horses that are true and capable of producing a desired standard does not happen with the snap of a finger. Until the science develops to the point where genes can be manipulated at will, all this will be 'hit or miss'. But it is going to occur, like it or not.